oil consumption?

hope this is the right place for this question.

I have a vx800 engine in my trike. The question I have for everyone is about oil consumption.

How much do your rides use?

How often do you have to top up?

The reason I ask is up until recently I have not been going on very long trips with my trike. Still getting used to the new engine and handling (had a reliant lump in it till a month ago) so only going out about 60 miles a ride with varying speeds from A roads to motorways. Have been keeping an eye on the oil level. I have filled her with Halfords 10w 40 motorcycle oil.

Last weekend I rode her to the kickback custom bike/trike show at donnington park which was a 280 mile round trip for me. Ride there and most of the way back was a constant 65/70 mph with some traffic on the return.
Problem is on checking my oil the following morning the window was empty!

I have no smoke from my exhaust, no cream in my rad, no leaks anywhere on the engine!

SO where is the oil going? 
Do your rides burn oil on a heavy run? 
Can it just be evaporating all that oil out the breather?

I am going to try and do another longish run soon to try and replicate the last one and see what happens


Any ideas would be appreciated cheers

I have the vl800 and no oil loss at all! cant help with where its going but someone here will, good luck

I have a VX800 and she does not use a drop so I am not sure either. What colour are the spark plugs?

Have you done a compression test? I don't use any between the 3500 mile services so to be using 1/2 a litre over 280 miles suggests somethings wrong? how's the air filter vents? any blow back in there?

Cheers for the quick response. 
Spark plugs are terracotta so seem ok.
No haven't done a compression test. Think that might be next port of call then. Need to buy or borrow a tester. What are the numbers I look for then do you know?

Standard 184 to 227psi -- Limit 156psi-- difference in cylinders 28psi according to the manual

http://www.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage/gs/Suzuki%20VX800%20Service%20Manual.pdf

Hmmm, its a custom build so needs a question.

Has the engine been mounted in the trike at the exact rake as it would have been mounted in the original bike, if its mounted in the frame so that its leaning more forward than it would have been then the oil would sit more at the front of the engine and less would show in the window.

If this is the case then filling to show in the window would mean its actually overfilled and the extra internal pressure would force excess oil out through the breathers.

I never need to top up, just do the oil changes but I haven't done that many miles.

Right no one I know has a compression tester or they were borrowed and not returned so I will have to order one and wait for it to come in the post.

Cheers for the figures simbo. Now I will know what I am looking for when I do get a tester.

Old luner good spot and question.  We have managed to get the engine as good as level, tops its only of by 1 or 2mm I recon but tilted more to the back than the front. Its made me think though if being out by that small amount could cause this then I could drop my yolks down on the forks a bit to level her out?

Oh and I dont have any air boxs to check as I have filters fitted on wide silicone pipe into the carbs and the breather isnt connect to anything it just runs down the frame and breaths/drips out.

Will be alot easier for you all when I do manage to put up pictures. 

Do you recon a better oil quality oil would help? Halfords oil in it the mo bit see that some of you are using motul. Is that better at higher temperature?
Im going to attach a small bottle on the end of the breather pipe to catch and see whats coming out of there after a good hard run.
appreciate all the ideas and info cheers.

twistedspirit wrote:

Do you recon a better oil quality oil would help? Halfords oil in it the mo bit see that some of you are using motul. Is that better at higher temperature?

The make of oil shouldn't make any difference to consumption, just a thought, you haven't changed oil and filter just before going for the ride have you? then not topped up after the filter has filled up after first starting?

No have had the filter on for about a month and half. Was planning to change oil and filter again soon as I am not completely sure of the engines history. I think the engine has only done about 43000 miles but am unsure how long it was stood for. On first fire up no smoke and none since.

Halfords bike easily as good as any "brand" or they wouldn't be as big as they are, still check the engine orientation is the same as "recommended" failing that if no visual oil  leaks......im stuck

Its got my stumped as well, have you checked the shaft seal? I suppose if that has gone and the gator is intact you could be filling up shaft housing?? I use Shell AX7 oil, its only £23.00 from EuoroCarParts so I can pick it up locally if necessary (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shell-Advance-4T-AX7-10w40-Semi-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Engine-Oil-4L-Litre-/231275613074?hash=item35d919cb92)

You need to make sure your oil meets JASO specs - have a read through this post - I'm using Silkolene Comp 4 now

v-twin i think the seal you mention is ok the gator is there as is the splined joint from the shaft but it has then been welded to a propshaft to a reliant axle. there is no oil in the gator.
katsd cheers read that thread its what made me think about changing the oil.
i will try altering the fork hight and doing a test run in the next few days weather and work permiting,

ok so l will buy 4 liters of silkolene comp 4 10w 40 synthetic ester oil from the bay of E. 
relating to this issue has anyone got/used/seen the oil temperature gauges you can get that screw in instead of the filler cap? what are your thoughts?
what should the normal running temp of the oil be?
am thinking of getting one to keep an eye on things and help figure out whats going on.

Seen a few and always ment to get one, they do look good! not 100% accurate because they depend on the circulated oil to hit the sensor but a block who manages the local Tesco has one on his 1200 Suzuki bandit thing and when I asked him about it a few weeks ago he told me he got it from ebay and he liked the fact it gave him an indication at least if the engine was burning up while sitting in traffic

cheers hawktheslayer, looks like one might be added to the shopping list. if i get one one will let you all know my thoughts.

twistedspirit wrote:

ok so l will buy 4 liters of silkolene comp 4 10w 40 synthetic ester oil from the bay of E. 

I'd keep using the cheaper oil until you find the cause of loss, no point wasting money on expensive stuff until it's resolved.

yeah thats the plan simbo. will drop all the oil out and fill again with halfrauds stuff to run tests.weather report for next few days looks ok so might try a lunch time test run if i get the chance. 30mins up the m40 and 30mins back to see what the oil does.

sorted a different problem today. i was getting a popping from the front exhaust, mainly on warm up and would then go. looked like there was a slight split on left side of the inlet manifold so got a replacement one off ebay from italy. when i removed my old one i noticed a couple of things. firstly the vacuum tube on the side of the manifold detached itself and came away with the hose   and then on the underside i found a large split that i think fed through to perished areas inside the manifold.
new one fitted and now no popping.

sorry been a while since posting, been very busy at work and had an earth problem which was stopping her from starting but sorted that now.
got the temp gauge in the post and fitted but no long runs carried out yet. shortish run on a quick lunch break had the gauge move up to about 80. if weather holds out and work calms down i will get out on her more and let you know what happens.

went to hoggin the bridge yesterday. it was a 307 mile round trip for me.
done 130 miles there at a steady 70/75 mph and 550ml of halfords oil disappeared.oil right at bottom of the window.
bought a liter of castrol oil from service station and topped up.
127 miles, ride out and trip back at similar speeds but not much oil gone, bit below the max fill line.

temperature gauge worked well though. steady 85ish all the way.

That's unusual to use half a litre going but none coming back? Is there any signs of a leak anywhere?

Strange one this one, if there isn't a leak it must be burning it, but if so it should have burnt just as much on the way back as it did on the outward trip.


Bit of a head scratcher.

yep its frying my brain thinking about it  

had a closer look today. it has lost some on the way back but nowhere near as much. if it lost 550 on the way there, on the way back it at a guess by looking at the window id say its used about 150/200ml.

cant find a leak anywhere. slight damp bits is all, around oil filter and valve covers, nothing close to a drip let alone a big leak.

today i will top up (get a better idea of return loss of oil), fit a small collection bottle to the rear breather pipe to see whats coming out there ( it breaths out not back to air box/carb) and drop the forks abit to try an get her spot on level (shes only slightly tipped back).
then i will have to run her some more and let you know how i get on.

My thoughts are with you on this one - hope you get it sorted - keep us updated

ok i am hoping i might be onto something.
reading and asking about i have been told that oil can be lost from bad valve adjustment. 
i then remembered that i had bought a compression tester and hadn't used it. compression was down a bit so i have removed what's need to get at the valve covers and adjust the valves.
i read through valve adjustment on here and in the vx800 manual i downloaded before starting  
(as mentioned before not had a bike or done much spannering)
only now looks like i didnt read close enough and half way through i now have a question.
as manual said i did the rear cylinder first. some were tight but i adjusted them all to 0.004" (manual said between 0.003 and 0.005) most they needed was about 1/4 turn out.
moved on to front one but they were VERY tight. had to wind them out 3 to 4 whole turns. the spindles now seem pretty high up with a fair bit of thread above the nuts.
worried by this i again looked at the manual.
looking closer at the pictures it says on lining up the top dead centre mark in the window but that for E18 models (on rear cylinder) you line up the line between R F with the mark on the case but for other models you line it up with the gap between F T.
so problem and question i have is how can i tell what model i have? as its not the original bike with frame all i have to go off is the engine number. can anyone tell me what it is? engine number is S501-112772
after doing this right hopefully my oil burning problem will go away.
sorry for the long winded question.

I can not help with the engine number, my VX's engine number just says 14!!

The difference between engines is that the American version has a different crank to the rest of the world, unless your engine came from the USA I would guess its a "for the other models". Also do not forget that the No1 cylinder is the rear one and the No2 cylinder is the front one.

I wouldn't have thought Valve Clearance would have been an issue with oil loss? Worn valve stem seals possibly, but you'd get shit loads of smoke mainly after revving from idle if they were shot, they don't show under constant throttle though, unless they're well gone.

cheers v twin. read that somewhere and yeah i went with #1 as the rear 
simbo i was told (if i remember right) that if the valves were not set properly that they could be staying open slightly and letting some oil through unburnt that you wouldn't see. might be clutching at straws but at best it fixes problem and at worst i know they are set right and i have learnt how to do it.
after alot more digging and translating i have found a reference to the vx800 and E18. on a German site it lists country codes and says that E18 is Switzerland. thats all i have found so far.
here is the list incase it helps anyone in the future.
  

Country Codes [Edit]

• E 01 Basic Model
  
  
• E 02 United Kingdom
  
  
• E 03 USA
  
  
• E 04 France
  
  
• E 15 Finland
  
  
• E 16 Norway
  
  
• E 17 Sweden
  
  
• E 18 Switzerland
  
  
• E 21 Belgium
  
  
• E 22 Germany
  
  
• E 24 Australia
  
  
• E 25 Netherlands
  
  
• E 28 Canada
  
  
• E 33 California (USA)
  
  
• E 34 Italy
  
  
• E 39 Austria
  
  
• E 53 Spain
  
  

As Sim says the only way oil gets past the valves is if the stem seals have gone. Normally this will show when it is started after it has been stood and it will smoke for a while. Check the compression, if it's above about 140 psi their is not a lot wrong with valves not closing properly. If it starts ok then that also indicates a good combustion environment which means you have good compression. I re-ringed my 650 compression went from 115-125psi across all 4 to 145-155psi, also when I got the 650 the valves were way out and it was a pig to start but it never smoked on start up.

update.
done a compression test. 180/190 on number 1 rear and 150/160 on number 2 front. put oil down the spark plug hole and results were the same so dont think its the rings looks like its valve side of things.
going to try some cleaner stuff through it but if that doesn't work it looks like i will be getting to know my engine intimately. will just have to decide ether to stop at stem seals or go all the way and do the rings whilst in there. anyone done this?

v-twin that's been the confusing thing, she starts on the button, pulls good with no smoke. hope to figure and sort it out soon.

happy new year all
update. 
over the christmas break i got a day to try and sort my engine. a good friend came to give me a hand.

so we got the lump out stripped both cylinders down, replaced rings, deglazed cylinders, new gaskets, new valve seals, lapped valves, re done gapping, new exhaust gaskets, new silkolene oil, new filter and got it all back in the frame after 17 hours graft.

fired straight up and sounds alot punchier straight off. slight stutter at about 50 in 4th but have gone over the air filters and will run again today if weather holds out and see if its fixed.
running her in for a bit before giving her to much power but will do another compression test in next couple of weeks. 
then the big test of a long run to see if the disappearing oil problem has been fixed.

heres hoping

Fingers crossed.

  Did you find anything untoward whilst you had it stripped? or was everything looking nice and rosie 

cheers guys 

simbo my mate said that the valve stem seals were abit hard and a very small mark on the cylinder but that was about it i think. nothing jumped out to say it was the problem. with all the new parts and seals in and the way she sounds and runs now i am really hopping its sorted because if oil is still disappearing after this i am at a loss as to where it could be going

think i have the slight stutter sorted now. she was getting to much air. have put some oil on the air filters and after a couple of small test she is almost spot on. bit more running in and maybe a fine tweak needed.

if the weather holds out today will do another lunch break run and compression test soon.

It's strange where it was going then? a small mark on the cylinder and hard stem seals don't warrant the amount of oil you were using, plus no blue smoke.

yeah im just hoping thats its a puzzle i can think of as in the past and not one that i have to keep thinking about. 

it will be a nervous ride that first long one. if not before it will probably be next weekend when i need to ride down towards somerset to my mates to fit the twin seat.

ran her yesterday and still a small stutter. couldn't get away for lunch today so i have put on a different set of air filters to see if they are any better.

stutter is now gone   the new filters weren't much better till i oiled them a bit now she goes fine up through all the gears. still running her in for a bit so hopefully all stay good.

after work today i thought it was about time to do a compression test and see if the numbers had gone up, was nervous to see what it would read.
well the numbers are in...........................220/230 on both   guess i done something right.
last test to do is the long run to check that the oil is no longer disappearing.

All good so far, good luck for the final test